CSM Meeting Minutes 5.012 raw log

CSM Meeting Minutes 5.012 raw log

Meeting took place on 28th Nov 2010

[ 17:06:04 ] Mynxee > .==================================CSM MEETING 012 CALLED TO ORDER==================================.
[ 17:06:19 ] Mynxee > okie doke here we go! x up if present!
[ 17:06:22 ] Sokratesz > x
[ 17:06:23 ] Dierdra Vaal > x
[ 17:06:25 ] TeaDaze > x
[ 17:06:25 ] Mynxee > x
[ 17:06:26 ] mazzilliu > im reading
[ 17:06:27 ] Trebor Daehdoow > x
[ 17:06:30 ] Helen Highwater > x
[ 17:06:46 ] Dierdra Vaal > well thats 7, vuk's in his meeting atm
[ 17:06:47 ] Mynxee > mazz, are you present or reading?
[ 17:07:10 ] mazzilliu > reading whats in this ch
[ 17:07:15 ] Mynxee > ok
[ 17:07:16 ] TeaDaze > Alpha said he might be here late
[ 17:07:24 ] Mynxee > a quorum then, regardless
[ 17:07:26 ] ElvenLord > O_o
[ 17:07:35 ] Mynxee > hi elven
[ 17:07:37 ] ElvenLord > hello all
[ 17:07:49 ] Mynxee > k i have no reminders, anyone else?
[ 17:07:56 ] Helen Highwater > Is Vuk the only full delegate not present?
[ 17:07:59 ] Dierdra Vaal > well
[ 17:08:09 ] ElvenLord > I just want to remind everyone that Sokratesz is a faggot as usual
[ 17:08:10 ] ElvenLord > :P
[ 17:08:12 ] Dierdra Vaal > the CSM wiki, I think CSMs2 and 4 still arent verified?
[ 17:08:19 ] Dierdra Vaal > I think it'd be good to get it done before Incursion
[ 17:08:25 ] Dierdra Vaal > everything up to date etc
[ 17:08:41 ] Mynxee > that's on the other business list DV
[ 17:08:44 ] Mynxee > we'll discuss then
[ 17:09:08 ] Mynxee > http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1405177
[ 17:09:19 ] Mynxee > but i agree
[ 17:09:31 ] Mynxee > ok, moving on then
[ 17:09:53 ] Mynxee > to address Helen's question
[ 17:10:31 ] Mynxee > we have 7 delegates present
[ 17:10:35 ] Mynxee > vuk is afk for a bit
[ 17:10:51 ] Mynxee > but no issues are on the board today
[ 17:11:08 ] Mynxee > so the meeting will focus on the Other Business items and I'm not sure there will involve any votes.
[ 17:11:16 ] Mynxee > howver
[ 17:11:29 ] Mynxee > all CSM members are encouraged to stay and participate if you can
[ 17:12:00 ] Mynxee > so
[ 17:12:06 ] Mynxee > moving on to Other Business
[ 17:12:21 ] Mynxee > first item, CCP Deliverables from June Summit
[ 17:12:31 ] Sokratesz > back, game ctd
[ 17:12:58 ] Mynxee > the wiki for it is updated; and nothing new has been delivered since the last update. the remaining undelivered items need followup but other stuff has taken priority.
[ 17:13:13 ] Mynxee > and to be honest, some of them, I don't know if we'll ever get.
[ 17:13:33 ] TeaDaze > We will just have to chase them at the December summit
[ 17:13:38 ] Dierdra Vaal > do we need them at this point?
[ 17:13:43 ] Helen Highwater > The PI economic fallout thing looks like it's been buried
[ 17:13:46 ] Mynxee > but...until CCP refuses accountability for them or this term ends, we shoudl keep purseuing them
[ 17:13:58 ] Helen Highwater > No mention in the last QEN
[ 17:14:04 ] Mynxee > i thought the PI stuff was to be in the QEN but it surely wasn't was it?
[ 17:14:12 ] Helen Highwater > No it wasn;t
[ 17:14:15 ] Mynxee > and eyjo specifically said it would be, iirc
[ 17:14:19 ] Helen Highwater > That was my understandng too
[ 17:14:26 ] Mynxee > when he deferred the question of this deliverabale.
[ 17:14:28 ] Dierdra Vaal > we have a discussion sessions with Eyjo on economy in december
[ 17:14:50 ] Mynxee > i think he should be reminded about this deliverable
[ 17:14:57 ] Mynxee > there is a low sec one related to PI as well
[ 17:15:22 ] Mynxee > so...follow up at the Summit on all of them, with DV leading the charge.
[ 17:15:33 ] Dierdra Vaal > hehe yeah
[ 17:15:52 ] Mynxee > by the way
[ 17:15:52 ] Sokratesz > are we !  ing or just talking
[ 17:16:05 ] Mynxee > was JUST gonna address that, get out of my head SOk!
[ 17:16:23 ] Sokratesz > you arent wearing your tinfoil
[ 17:16:27 ] Mynxee > in these discussions, i'm cool if it's freeform unless you see me do this: !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! to indicate it's hard to keep up
[ 17:16:33 ] Sokratesz > ok
[ 17:16:37 ] Mynxee > and then we'll go to ! for a time
[ 17:16:57 ] Sokratesz > i'd like to say that incursion 1.0.0 patchnotes received a lot of positive attention
[ 17:17:03 ] Sokratesz > we should comment on that, throw them a bone
[ 17:17:07 ] Mynxee > we have an agenda here, ssok
[ 17:17:18 ] Mynxee > please save that for the end of this Other Business section
[ 17:17:27 ] Sokratesz > yeh but on the topic of things to do in iceland to ccp
[ 17:17:32 ] Mynxee > the agenda
[ 17:17:34 ] Mynxee > is
[ 17:17:38 ] Mynxee > -- CCP Deliverables from June Summit (status update)-- December Summit CSM Roster (status update)-- Dev Priorities List for Next Release Planning Meetings (status update)-- CSM Issue Wiki's/CCP Backlog Correlation (status update)
[ 17:17:45 ] Mynxee > -- CSM Monthly "Bullet Point" Updates (in Jita Park, at Athena Olympus's suggestion)-- Assembly Hall Proposal Challenges and Suggestions-- TBD
[ 17:17:54 ] Mynxee > we are on the first one, deliverables
[ 17:18:21 ] Sokratesz > ok
[ 17:18:24 ] Mynxee > we'll talk about Summit session topics as one of the TBD items, okay? otherwise it's just going to be a jumble
[ 17:18:41 ] Mynxee > so moving on ============================================
[ 17:18:47 ] Mynxee > December Summit CSM Roster
[ 17:18:58 ] Mynxee > quick update: Vuk and I cannot attend
[ 17:19:09 ] Mynxee > Helen Highwater and Alpha12125 will go instead
[ 17:19:29 ] Mynxee > however, Vuk and I will if possible SKype in for a couple of sessions of key interest if schedules make that possible
[ 17:19:41 ] Mynxee > any other news regarding teh roster?
[ 17:19:54 ] Dierdra Vaal > uhm, I'll be chairing in your absence
[ 17:19:55 ] Mynxee > or questions?
[ 17:19:58 ] Dierdra Vaal > but thats not really news
[ 17:20:23 ] Mynxee > oh yes, that's right...and even when / if I skype in, you'll continue to chair. As well, if there are any votes during the a time when vuk or i are called in, we won't participate.
[ 17:20:34 ] Dierdra Vaal > for helen and alpha, please make sure you're read up on the june and october summit minutes :)
[ 17:20:56 ] Helen Highwater > I'll do my homework
[ 17:21:09 ] Mynxee > and the threads in our internal forums related to session topics we have requested....probably mainly on the first two pages
[ 17:21:17 ] Helen Highwater > I don't often chime in but I do read a lot (except for JP apparently)
[ 17:21:33 ] Mynxee > Hee hee. kk anything else on this agenda item?
[ 17:22:00 ] Mynxee > Next up then
[ 17:22:05 ] Mynxee > Dev Priorities List for Next Release Planning Meetings
[ 17:22:12 ] Mynxee > Trebor, care to give a quick status update for the record?
[ 17:22:19 ] Mynxee > then we'l discuss next steps
[ 17:22:26 ] Trebor Daehdoow > Well, we finished the player crowdsourcing -- http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/November_2010_Prioritization_Crowdsourcing_%28CSM%29
[ 17:22:56 ] Mynxee > nice participation on this one, too. was glad to see that.
[ 17:23:04 ] Trebor Daehdoow > This gives us some basic metrics we can use to argue for particular priorities, and also gives groups in CCP some support if they have similar desires.
[ 17:23:14 ] Sokratesz > people have been questioning howmuch ccp cares about that
[ 17:23:16 ] Mynxee > how many total votes were cast for items?
[ 17:23:36 ] Trebor Daehdoow > Next step is for everyone to go over the list and post which items they support, then I can sort them by that as well.
[ 17:23:45 ] Mynxee > cares about what, Sok?
[ 17:24:22 ] Sokratesz > howmuch ccp appreciates the massive efforts that were put into that by robert and others, and what they do with the results
[ 17:24:26 ] Trebor Daehdoow > We should do that in a forum thread.
[ 17:24:30 ] Trebor Daehdoow > 3458 valid ballots
[ 17:24:37 ] Mynxee > well my position is it doesn't matter whether CCP cares
[ 17:24:42 ] Mynxee > our job is to represent players
[ 17:24:51 ] Mynxee > and if this helps us do that, then that's all that matters
[ 17:24:53 ] Sokratesz > true
[ 17:24:58 ] TeaDaze > And show CCP how crowdsourcing really works ;)
[ 17:25:01 ] Mynxee > our message goes to ccp and that is what they have to care about
[ 17:25:26 ] Mynxee > exactly tea
[ 17:25:49 ] Mynxee > alright, next step is for everyone to please express your priority preferences in the internal forums thread
[ 17:26:02 ] Mynxee > please do that in next day or two, say by Weds?
[ 17:26:06 ] Sokratesz > howmany?
[ 17:26:17 ] Mynxee > same rules as for players
[ 17:26:22 ] TeaDaze > Will do
[ 17:26:49 ] Korvin > afaik players just made the numbers they liked
[ 17:26:54 ] Mynxee > and then we can discuss the outcome after Trebor posts results
[ 17:27:03 ] Mynxee > trebor provided guidelines
[ 17:27:18 ] Mynxee > Each ballot was worth 20 points, divided equally between the items picked, with a maximum item value of 3 (so players needed to pick at least 7 items to get full "value" for their votes).
[ 17:27:30 ] Trebor Daehdoow > In any case, if nobody objects I'll put up a thread in the internal forum so everyone can thumbsup items of particular interest.
[ 17:27:30 ] Mynxee > you can pick as many as you like
[ 17:27:34 ] Trebor Daehdoow > (end)
[ 17:27:42 ] Mynxee > but the value of each vote goes down if you choose too many
[ 17:27:47 ] Mynxee > ok trebor
[ 17:27:58 ] Mynxee > thanks again for leading the charge with the crowdsourcing stuff.
[ 17:28:03 ] Mynxee > that process has evolved nicely
[ 17:28:37 ] Trebor Daehdoow > TBH, I think for CSMs it would be easier to thumbsup any number, then we just sort by the # of csms who support an item, and subsort by player popularity.
[ 17:29:00 ] Trebor Daehdoow > Easier on me too.
[ 17:29:08 ] Mynxee > 3,458 votes cast by players is a good participation level; i think having the crowdsourcing thread linked as a news item twice was quite helpful. Much love to CCP Navigator!
[ 17:29:17 ] Mynxee > and ok re CSM process.
[ 17:29:30 ] Mynxee > any other questions on this for now?
[ 17:29:35 ] Trebor Daehdoow > Agreed on Navigator - there was even a login banner ad...
[ 17:29:47 ] Mynxee > yeah that was neat.
[ 17:30:07 ] Mynxee > ok moving on then ===========================================
[ 17:30:13 ] Mynxee > CSM Issue Wiki's/CCP Backlog Correlation
[ 17:30:25 ] Mynxee > i fail. LOL. i still need to finish the CSM2 items
[ 17:30:32 ] Mynxee > there are not that many left
[ 17:30:35 ] Dierdra Vaal > technically, that was vuk;s job
[ 17:30:38 ] Mynxee > just a matter of devoting a couple of hours to doing it
[ 17:30:47 ] Mynxee > yeah but he's never going to do it and thus i said i would
[ 17:30:55 ] Mynxee > so i'm on the hook for that
[ 17:30:56 ] Dierdra Vaal > thing is, it'd be great to have the 'resolved issues' page be 100% accurate when incursion hits
[ 17:31:01 ] Dierdra Vaal > especially with the new stuff
[ 17:31:06 ] Mynxee > agreed
[ 17:31:14 ] TeaDaze > We can't do that till they are actually released
[ 17:31:19 ] Trebor Daehdoow > There are also some items in the in-process list that should be moved to resolved that were brought to light by the crowdsourcing.
[ 17:31:23 ] Dierdra Vaal > correct TD
[ 17:31:33 ] Mynxee > was just gonna say that Trebor
[ 17:31:35 ] Trebor Daehdoow > There is a list of itms that I deleted for this reason on the crowdsourcing page.
[ 17:31:57 ] Dierdra Vaal > thats why I think CSM2 and 4 still need to be verified
[ 17:32:07 ] Dierdra Vaal > and I'll go over 3 and 1 again, but I thnk those should be done
[ 17:32:20 ] Mynxee > wasn't someone else going to do CSM4?
[ 17:32:26 ] Mynxee > /emote looks at Elven
[ 17:32:37 ] Dierdra Vaal > I thought it was TD :P
[ 17:32:45 ] Mynxee > /emote looks at TD
[ 17:33:16 ] Mynxee > as i recall, we agreed it would be best if the person who did the CSM4 ones was a member of CSM4 for best ability to sort reality
[ 17:33:26 ] Dierdra Vaal > yup
[ 17:33:42 ] Mynxee > then there is the task of correlating all the CSM issues with the list that xhagen gave us from the backlog to be sure they match up
[ 17:33:59 ] Mynxee > his list might have some inaccuracies on it
[ 17:34:09 ] Dierdra Vaal > /emote expects at least a few
[ 17:34:19 ] Mynxee > but that can't happen till the wiki is all up to date
[ 17:35:00 ] Mynxee > Teadaze, do you know when you might have a chance to look at the CSM4 items and update them?
[ 17:35:35 ] Mynxee > i'll try to finish the CSM2 stuff by tomorrow night
[ 17:35:51 ] TeaDaze > I'm going to be busy till after the summit
[ 17:36:05 ] TeaDaze > On holiday as of next week
[ 17:36:12 ] Dierdra Vaal > we need someone from CSM4 to step up
[ 17:36:15 ] Dierdra Vaal > and there's a lot of you
[ 17:36:27 ] Mynxee > who from CSM4 will step up to do this task?
[ 17:36:32 ] Helen Highwater > I'll do it
[ 17:36:43 ] Helen Highwater > Jut give me a quick run down of what's needed
[ 17:36:55 ] Mynxee > Helen, did you get/save the email from Petur with the list of backlog items?
[ 17:37:02 ] Dierdra Vaal > basically, to 1) verify that all CSM issues that were handled in CSM4 are on the wiki
[ 17:37:05 ] Helen Highwater > let me check
[ 17:37:17 ] Dierdra Vaal > and 2) verify they're in the right categories (CSM4, resolved/in process, etc)
[ 17:37:34 ] Helen Highwater > the Excel sheet?
[ 17:37:36 ] TeaDaze > They'll be linked from the CSM database
[ 17:37:48 ] Helen Highwater > I have that one from Oct 22nd
[ 17:37:52 ] Mynxee > yeah HH
[ 17:37:59 ] Dierdra Vaal > if the excel sheet is based on the wiki then no..
[ 17:38:01 ] Mynxee > not the one from Elven, the one from Xhagen
[ 17:38:07 ] Dierdra Vaal > so it depends what the excel sheet is based on
[ 17:38:11 ] Mynxee > that is the one, oct 22
[ 17:38:39 ] Mynxee > after you have done the two steps DV mentioned above
[ 17:38:54 ] Mynxee > then you need to compare the CSM4 items to Xhagen's list to be sure they correlate
[ 17:38:59 ] Mynxee > if there is a discrepancy
[ 17:39:20 ] Mynxee > it needs to be tracked down and either wiki or his list corrected
[ 17:39:29 ] Mynxee > if his list is wrong, we need to submit taht to him
[ 17:39:41 ] Helen Highwater > Ok, do I only count issues that wer raised by CSM 4 or issues that were reopened from previous CSMs as well?
[ 17:39:42 ] Mynxee > i'm thiking you could identify those items in the Wiki update thread in our internal forums
[ 17:39:47 ] Mynxee > i can hear you groan haha
[ 17:39:50 ] Mynxee > only CSM4
[ 17:39:55 ] Mynxee > 1 and 3 are done
[ 17:39:58 ] Mynxee > i'm working on 2
[ 17:40:03 ] Helen Highwater > I'll try and get that done this week
[ 17:40:06 ] Mynxee > 5 was done by trebor i think
[ 17:40:26 ] Dierdra Vaal > I thikn for CSM4, teadaze's CSM database website should be a reliable source?
[ 17:40:30 ] Dierdra Vaal > TD can you comment on that?
[ 17:40:52 ] Mynxee > it is, i believe.
[ 17:40:58 ] TeaDaze > All the issues are linked to the wiki
[ 17:41:14 ] Dierdra Vaal > http://teadaze.net/csmDB/index.php <-- that one
[ 17:41:20 ] Mynxee > HH if you have any questions, ask on MSN or in the forums...whatever works for you
[ 17:41:20 ] TeaDaze > Specifically http://teadaze.net/csmDB/proposals.php?csmsession=4
[ 17:41:42 ] Vuk Lau > back
[ 17:41:58 ] Helen Highwater > Ok
[ 17:42:07 ] Helen Highwater > Should be pretty self explanatory
[ 17:42:11 ] Mynxee > wb vuk
[ 17:42:15 ] Mynxee > yeah its easy
[ 17:42:38 ] Mynxee > ok any other stuff on the CSM wiki tasks?
[ 17:42:57 ] Mynxee > moving on then =========================================================
[ 17:43:03 ] Mynxee > CSM Monthly "Bullet Point" Updates (in Jita Park, at Athena Olympus's suggestion)
[ 17:43:10 ] Mynxee > this is just a quick comoment
[ 17:43:26 ] Mynxee > this player asked for a monthly bullet point update on CSM activities
[ 17:43:33 ] Mynxee > we don't really do that anywhere in an easily digestible format
[ 17:43:37 ] Mynxee > so i agree to do it
[ 17:43:44 ] Mynxee > and will start with the first one after this meting
[ 17:43:51 ] Mynxee > gonna aim for doing it the first of each month
[ 17:43:56 ] Mynxee > or thereabouts
[ 17:44:18 ] Mynxee > its really just a "finger on the pulse" kind of thing
[ 17:44:29 ] Sokratesz > could just be blog like?
[ 17:44:32 ] Mynxee > and i'll keep one thread going for the purpose.
[ 17:44:49 ] Mynxee > any discussion ?
[ 17:44:55 ] Sokratesz > can't we get a section on the website
[ 17:45:05 ] Helen Highwater > It should ideally be a stickied and locked post
[ 17:45:05 ] Sokratesz > there is a CSM header on the bottom left in the looong list
[ 17:45:20 ] Helen Highwater > otherwise it will become useless very quickly as people comment on it
[ 17:45:31 ] Mynxee > Helen, a good idea
[ 17:45:33 ] Mynxee > actually
[ 17:45:37 ] Helen Highwater > 200 +1 posts between informational posts
[ 17:45:37 ] Mynxee > i culd make it a wiki page
[ 17:45:42 ] Mynxee > and just link that
[ 17:45:51 ] Mynxee > in a stickied and locked post
[ 17:46:03 ] Mynxee > will chat with zymurgist about that
[ 17:46:25 ] TeaDaze > ok
[ 17:46:42 ] Mynxee > sok: re menu on web site, there is the initiative being undertaken by YARR to make a CSM portal page on the wiki
[ 17:46:52 ] Mynxee > i would prefer it get addressed there when that is done
[ 17:46:55 ] Sokratesz > ok
[ 17:47:09 ] Mynxee > although i need to check on the status as i've heard nothing in awhile from them
[ 17:47:35 ] Mynxee > alright then...moving on =========================================
[ 17:47:43 ] Mynxee > big topic now: Assembly Hall Proposal Challenges and Suggestions
[ 17:48:17 ] Mynxee > i brought this up because it's clear that dealing with Assembly Hall is a pain but more than that, it is increasingly more difficult to find well supported proposals in there
[ 17:48:23 ] Mynxee > there are various reasons why
[ 17:48:29 ] Mynxee > but people have mentioned it
[ 17:48:39 ] Mynxee > and so i'm asking for feedback, suggestions, etc.
[ 17:48:54 ] Mynxee > the bulk of conversation on this should probably take place in our internal forums because it's too lenghty for a meeting
[ 17:49:00 ] Dierdra Vaal > well...
[ 17:49:02 ] Korvin > wasnt ccp on a half way to introduce a new forum?
[ 17:49:03 ] Mynxee > but want the community to be aware that we are aware of some of the issues
[ 17:49:10 ] Dierdra Vaal > yes exactly
[ 17:49:14 ] Mynxee > Korvin...yes
[ 17:49:17 ] Dierdra Vaal > I'm curious to see what the new forums will bring us
[ 17:49:23 ] Mynxee > but they have not consulted with us at all about what would be useful for CSM
[ 17:49:34 ] Mynxee > and therefore i have zero faith it will be useful for our needs
[ 17:49:56 ] Korvin > well, we should ask ccp to test it and see if it is suitable for csm needs
[ 17:49:58 ] Mynxee > as you can't design a tool for an audience with specific needs if you do not take time to understand those needs
[ 17:50:08 ] Mynxee > how would ccp know that
[ 17:50:10 ] Mynxee > they arent the csm
[ 17:50:14 ] Mynxee > WE are, right now.
[ 17:50:23 ] Mynxee > we should be asked for what we need and want
[ 17:50:44 ] mazzilliu > fromw hat i know they are using a forum package that has voting capaities just like a regular forum
[ 17:50:45 ] Mynxee > since we gave our list of potential features at the june summit there has been nothing at all from ccp
[ 17:51:06 ] Mynxee > voting capabilities aren't the only feature needed for csm to have a useful tool however
[ 17:51:11 ] Mynxee > and that is the crux of the problem
[ 17:51:18 ] Mynxee > they have not done any needs analysis
[ 17:51:32 ] Mynxee > for users, yes. for CSM no.
[ 17:51:43 ] Mynxee > for example
[ 17:52:09 ] Mynxee > what might be done to make it easier to identify those issues with the best support? wil the new forums do that automatically?
[ 17:52:14 ] Mynxee > we have zero idea.
[ 17:52:24 ] Mynxee > since we have zero communication from WebCell about this.
[ 17:52:41 ] Korvin > we can ask them to show us in december
[ 17:52:48 ] Mynxee > it is one reason i added CSM Process, Tools and Evolution to the Summit session topic
[ 17:53:03 ] Korvin > on a big screen during the meal :D
[ 17:53:21 ] Mynxee > they have nothing to show, as far as i know, Korvin. I was told by someone that CSM tool stuff won't be addressed til late next year.
[ 17:53:22 ] ElvenLord > I will just add to this that you overestimate the importamce of CSM and you are not being realistic with this forum thing
[ 17:53:26 ] Mynxee > can't remember where i read that.
[ 17:53:45 ] Mynxee > care to explain, elven?
[ 17:53:48 ] ElvenLord > they havent even decided on what are they going to use as forums backend let alone what will they add to it
[ 17:54:00 ] ElvenLord > it will come down to money in the end
[ 17:54:23 ] Vuk Lau > exactly
[ 17:54:32 ] Mynxee > sure it will. my point is, that IF and WHEN CCP decides to "do something for CSM"
[ 17:54:39 ] Vuk Lau > lets wait for the new forums (or at least decision how they will look like)
[ 17:54:39 ] ElvenLord > they will use forum they can and will pay
[ 17:54:39 ] Mynxee > if they don't engage us in a discussion about our needs
[ 17:54:45 ] Mynxee > then how can they build something useful?
[ 17:54:48 ] mazzilliu > i dont think their forum stuff is even far enough along for it to be even reasonable
[ 17:55:15 ] Helen Highwater > IIIRC they were looking at rolling it out pretty soon
[ 17:55:21 ] mazzilliu > and anyways whatever we need will change we cant dictate a forum feature for every variation of voting that can happen
[ 17:55:39 ] Mynxee > why would we?
[ 17:55:46 ] Helen Highwater > The discussion at the time had December as the window
[ 17:55:46 ] mazzilliu > why would we what
[ 17:56:04 ] Mynxee > the point is to identify the key features that would aid us in doing our job
[ 17:56:15 ] ElvenLord > Mynx, CSM is just a handfull of ppl with a simple task to do aka not that important. Its more important that that new forum software suits the desires of 300.000 customers and 1000 employees
[ 17:56:15 ] mazzilliu > just some simple way to vote something yes, or no, i dont see any reason for ccp to take any more requests for csm specific stuff
[ 17:56:19 ] Mynxee > and design them to provide that support
[ 17:56:24 ] ElvenLord > those 9-15 CSM guys are last in that line
[ 17:56:42 ] Mynxee > Elven, that is your opinion. We'll just have to agree to disagree.
[ 17:56:42 ] mazzilliu > yeah i agree with elvenlord.  this is just way too overreaching to demand that the csm get to dictate every little thing
[ 17:56:46 ] Dierdra Vaal > I think that this discussion would be best continued on the forum
[ 17:56:50 ] ElvenLord > as for software they will take the best one they can for budget they have
[ 17:57:00 ] ElvenLord > and all addons will be dealth later
[ 17:57:05 ] ElvenLord > like the CSM desires
[ 17:57:11 ] ElvenLord > so be realistics
[ 17:57:19 ] Mynxee > i am realistic
[ 17:57:32 ] Mynxee > i a not saying i want it NOW
[ 17:57:57 ] Helen Highwater > There's little difference at the scale that CCP are loking at between the top few forum packages. They absolutely can shop around for a solution that fits a particular need without balloning the costs
[ 17:58:05 ] Mynxee > i am saying when they do it, engage us to find out what are needs are instead of a) assuming and b) wasting time buidling something that doesn't hit the mark
[ 17:58:29 ] Mynxee > whether that happens in a year or two or ten
[ 17:58:31 ] mazzilliu > our third party methods of gathering votes is plenty good and much more easy to change to suit our particular needs than any ccp forum feature
[ 17:58:31 ] Trebor Daehdoow > or (c) going with something that cannot be modified easily to provide features that CSM needs.
[ 17:58:44 ] mazzilliu > demanding ccp accomidate our voting gathering with a feature is unnecessary
[ 17:59:08 ] Dierdra Vaal > ok everyone made some good points
[ 17:59:17 ] Dierdra Vaal > lets can this discussion and take it to the forum
[ 17:59:21 ] Mynxee > i disagree. right now, nothing keeps well supported proposals from dropping out of sight to lower pages when newer topics are created.
[ 17:59:25 ] Dierdra Vaal > because if not we'll still be here in 10 hours
[ 17:59:27 ] ElvenLord > besides, CSM will be the first one to test the new forums and have a say on it when its done
[ 17:59:31 ] ElvenLord > like with eve-gate
[ 17:59:35 ] Mynxee > that is a fundamental issue.
[ 17:59:45 ] Mynxee > Agreed, DV. We'll continue on the forums
[ 17:59:57 ] Mynxee > *internal forums
[ 18:00:24 ] Mynxee > but i would like to discuss proopsals in general
[ 18:00:44 ] Mynxee > greyscale gave us some good guidelines for effective proposal writing
[ 18:00:59 ] Mynxee > "elevator pitch" not "implementation details"
[ 18:01:30 ] Mynxee > is this a message that needs to be stated to players in ... maybe Teadaze's post ... in AH, to help them do a more effective job?
[ 18:01:54 ] TeaDaze > Could do
[ 18:02:00 ] Mynxee > or is Problem, Solution, Selling Points approach desireable for most kinds of things that get proposed there?
[ 18:02:02 ] TeaDaze > Mine is in teh Jita park though, Mazz has the one in the AH
[ 18:02:13 ] Mynxee > i thin it should be moved Tea
[ 18:02:17 ] Mynxee > mazz's is good
[ 18:02:20 ] Mynxee > yours is good
[ 18:02:25 ] Mynxee > they shoudl both be in AH, i believe
[ 18:02:34 ] mazzilliu > i dont know what mazz thing youre talking about
[ 18:02:43 ] Mynxee > your sticky in AH
[ 18:02:48 ] mazzilliu > oh ok
[ 18:02:52 ] mazzilliu > what about it
[ 18:03:01 ] Mynxee > http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1178661
[ 18:03:28 ] mazzilliu > so?
[ 18:03:35 ] Mynxee > just stating that Teadaze has a sticky in Jita Park
[ 18:03:43 ] Mynxee > and it should be in AH like yours is, and stickied
[ 18:03:45 ] mazzilliu > oh, ok then
[ 18:04:29 ] Mynxee > no comments about these different approaches to proposals then, as I outlined above?
[ 18:04:43 ] Mynxee > e.g., greyscale's suggestion vs the typical type of proposal posted?
[ 18:04:54 ] Dierdra Vaal > I think it'd be a good thing if we can do it
[ 18:04:58 ] Dierdra Vaal > but it'll be hard to do
[ 18:04:58 ] mazzilliu > i was just going to follow gray scale's suggestion from now on
[ 18:05:14 ] Dierdra Vaal > simply because players often _need_ details before they are willing to support it
[ 18:05:16 ] Mynxee > i'm talking about educating players however, so that THEIR proposals better conform
[ 18:05:18 ] Dierdra Vaal > which is not entirely unreasonable
[ 18:05:22 ] mazzilliu > the players dont have to change their approach
[ 18:05:27 ] mazzilliu > we understand what they are saying
[ 18:05:32 ] mazzilliu > and the education is a lot of efffort
[ 18:05:32 ] Mynxee > ok
[ 18:05:36 ] Dierdra Vaal > I agree with maz, we have to re-write the wiki issues anyway
[ 18:05:51 ] Mynxee > so mazz is suggesting that the CSM can do the 'reformat' when choosing a proposal to raise
[ 18:05:53 ] Mynxee > ok
[ 18:05:55 ] Dierdra Vaal > though it would be good to stress that players should also include their Goal and such
[ 18:05:57 ] Vuk Lau > [18:04:58] Mynxee  i'm talking about educating players however, so that THEIR proposals better conform - that will be wasted energy
[ 18:05:58 ] mazzilliu > its just translating it to the devs, who dont look like they play the game and understand why people want stuff
[ 18:06:19 ] mazzilliu > we have to rewrite peoples ah proposals anyways
[ 18:06:21 ] TeaDaze > I don't like the implication that players shouldn't suggest solutions though, because CCP have a history of not understanding the player concerns and just saying "Game design know best" isn't a good message to the players
[ 18:06:24 ] Vuk Lau > its not that they dont like like playing the game, devs are NOT PLAYING the game
[ 18:06:56 ] Sokratesz > that ^^
[ 18:06:57 ] Mynxee > agreed that solutions as "ways this could be implemented" are vital
[ 18:07:01 ] mazzilliu > it has nothing to do with telling players not to participate
[ 18:07:08 ] mazzilliu > its just translating between different languages
[ 18:07:47 ] TeaDaze > There is a trust issue too. Many players no longer trust CCP's solution to problems
[ 18:08:26 ] mazzilliu > because things seem to do the opposite of their stated objective
[ 18:08:30 ] TeaDaze > If you tell them "CCp will come up with the solutions just give us the problems" we'll see less good proposals being raised because what is the point
[ 18:08:36 ] Mynxee > at the very least, i do believe players should include the "elevator pitch" with their proopsals for best sell...not just to CCP but to other players as well. there are an awful lot of proposals with crap support
[ 18:08:45 ] Mynxee > and not jsut the bad ones
[ 18:09:10 ] Dierdra Vaal > this is true
[ 18:09:12 ] mazzilliu > have fun trying to convince the masses of assembly hall that sort fof nuance, ill bring the popcorn
[ 18:09:23 ] Mynxee > the whole issue of rallying support for proposals is one that seems lost on players
[ 18:09:29 ] mazzilliu > we understand their meaning anyways.  why is this even a problem
[ 18:09:36 ] Dierdra Vaal > maybe we could do a CSM blog about it? or would that be wasted effort
[ 18:09:52 ] Vuk Lau > i am with mazz here
[ 18:10:04 ] Mynxee > i'm not going to convince anyone of anything. i'm just having a discussion about how we the CSM can help players produce better proposals and get better support for them
[ 18:10:17 ] Vuk Lau > mass educating plebes is waste of our internet time
[ 18:10:22 ] Mynxee > it might be worth donig a csm blog
[ 18:10:32 ] Dierdra Vaal > I can look into that mynxee :)
[ 18:10:36 ] Mynxee > i think that is a demeaning statement, vuk.
[ 18:10:38 ] Vuk Lau > i would rather blog about my apetite, and how sexy I am
[ 18:10:42 ] Korvin > its easy - btibe one of the csm to do the job
[ 18:10:47 ] Korvin > *bribe
[ 18:10:56 ] Mynxee > how about this...
[ 18:10:57 ] Korvin > all we need is a proper pricelist :D
[ 18:10:58 ] mazzilliu > maybe for informational/entertainment purposes if anyone ever cares to find out how the csm works.  but it sounds like a really boring writeup right there not even worth publishing
[ 18:10:59 ] Vuk Lau > we understand the players, right?
[ 18:11:02 ] ElvenLord > this is pointless debate, I'll go shop for some adidas
[ 18:11:10 ] Vuk Lau > exactly what mazz is saying
[ 18:11:12 ] Trebor Daehdoow > I am appalled by your contempt for the players you purport to represent, Vuk.
[ 18:11:24 ] Vuk Lau > i understand the players? Do you?
[ 18:11:42 ] mazzilliu > yeah im going to go do something else until youall are finished running in circles and move on to the next subject
[ 18:11:47 ] mazzilliu > bye
[ 18:11:48 ] TeaDaze > I understand some plauers, I don't have the ego to assume I understand all ;)
[ 18:12:01 ] Mynxee > ^^
[ 18:12:06 ] Dierdra Vaal > guys, thats not really acceptable
[ 18:12:07 ] Vuk Lau > i am blessed that I am working with retards for a long time
[ 18:12:13 ] Vuk Lau > so I understand all players
[ 18:12:13 ] Helen Highwater > Educating players for this kind ofthing is a never ending task that is largely wasted on 90% of the people posting proposals
[ 18:12:25 ] ElvenLord > :D
[ 18:12:29 ] Vuk Lau > 5 of us are unilateral on one thing
[ 18:12:36 ] Vuk Lau > and you are still trying to impose this
[ 18:12:38 ] Vuk Lau > seriously?
[ 18:12:48 ] Mynxee > it doesn't mean it's not worth doing, for those of us who give a shit. I'm trying to impose nothing.
[ 18:12:55 ] Mynxee > jsut having a discussion
[ 18:12:59 ] Mynxee > looking for feedback
[ 18:13:02 ] Mynxee > got it
[ 18:13:05 ] Mynxee > so...
[ 18:13:08 ] Mynxee > i will make a thread about this
[ 18:13:13 ] Mynxee > the ones who have an interest
[ 18:13:14 ] Vuk Lau > wait wait
[ 18:13:15 ] Mynxee > can participate
[ 18:13:20 ] Vuk Lau > we do give a shit
[ 18:13:27 ] Mynxee > about THIS issue i meant
[ 18:13:27 ] Vuk Lau > dont try to twist the words
[ 18:13:35 ] Mynxee > the one we are discussing right now
[ 18:13:58 ] Mynxee > some of us care about it, some don't , that is clear.
[ 18:13:59 ] Korvin > [18:13:20] Vuk Lau  we do give a shit
[ 18:14:25 ] Vuk Lau > i dont give a shit about educating players how to raise issues "by the book"
[ 18:14:36 ] Vuk Lau > cause I understand them
[ 18:14:45 ] Vuk Lau > thats my final statement
[ 18:14:47 ] Dierdra Vaal > you are probably overestimating yourself
[ 18:14:49 ] Dierdra Vaal > ok, mynxee with make a thread about it - that's all we need to do right now
[ 18:14:50 ] ElvenLord > by the book you mean in retarded way Greyscale can understand?
[ 18:14:53 ] Dierdra Vaal > next item
[ 18:14:57 ] Vuk Lau > exactly
[ 18:14:59 ] ElvenLord > and screw it up as usual?
[ 18:15:00 ] Vuk Lau > and I am not
[ 18:15:05 ] Vuk Lau > overestimating myself
[ 18:15:13 ] Vuk Lau > i demand duel Val
[ 18:15:24 ] Mynxee > obviously we're past useful discussion now on this matter here.
[ 18:15:28 ] Mynxee > so i'll make the thread
[ 18:15:32 ] Mynxee > and let's move on
[ 18:15:41 ] Mynxee > i have no more items, does anyone else?
[ 18:15:45 ] Mynxee > =============================
[ 18:16:11 ] Trebor Daehdoow > November Prioritization - CSM response thread: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1422345
[ 18:16:16 ] Sokratesz > as i said at the start
[ 18:16:31 ] Sokratesz > the reception of the new blog thingy has been very positive
[ 18:16:41 ] Mynxee > ah yes, the incursion patch notes
[ 18:16:45 ] Mynxee > ?
[ 18:16:48 ] Mynxee > or what?
[ 18:16:50 ] Sokratesz > and as far as i can tell they really put some effort in to make useful things happen
[ 18:16:51 ] Sokratesz > yes
[ 18:17:08 ] Mynxee > yeah i have seen very positive comments about a lot of the items
[ 18:17:11 ] Sokratesz > so they deserve some credit imo
[ 18:17:31 ] Mynxee > agreed, actually those patch notes are kind of a watermark
[ 18:17:31 ] Dierdra Vaal > I agree sok

Further discussion relating to December Summit omitted as requested

[ 18:23:24 ] Mynxee > .===============================CSM MEETING 012 ADJOURNED===============================.