CSM Meeting Minutes 5.004 raw log
Meeting took place on 10th July 2010
[ 16:30:20 ] Mynxee > ===========================================CSM MEETING 004 CALLED TO ORDER
[ 16:30:33 ] Mynxee > x up if present
[ 16:30:35 ] mazzilliu > x
[ 16:30:35 ] Vuk Lau > x
[ 16:30:36 ] TeaDaze > x
[ 16:30:36 ] Meissa Anunthiel > x
[ 16:30:38 ] Trebor Daehdoow > x
[ 16:30:46 ] Korvin > %
[ 16:30:47 ] Dierdra Vaal > x
[ 16:31:04 ] Mynxee > ok we have a quorum.
[ 16:31:10 ] Vuk Lau > phew
[ 16:31:30 ] Mynxee > no reminders from me. anyone else?
[ 16:31:50 ] Dierdra Vaal > uh
[ 16:31:50 ] Meissa Anunthiel > sok is absent/excused?
[ 16:31:56 ] Dierdra Vaal > say hi to miss maz
[ 16:31:59 ] Mynxee > no word from sok
[ 16:31:59 ] Dierdra Vaal > the new CSM rep
[ 16:32:06 ] Mynxee > and welcome mazz
[ 16:32:11 ] Vuk Lau > [16:31:53] Dierdra Vaal > the new CSM rep - its not official
[ 16:32:12 ] Trebor Daehdoow > /emote claps
[ 16:32:15 ] Meissa Anunthiel > question: did you get official notifcation from CCP yet mazz?
[ 16:32:17 ] Vuk Lau > Eva could be back
[ 16:32:24 ] mazzilliu > CCP did not notify me
[ 16:32:24 ] Dierdra Vaal > eva officially got removed by ccp didnt she?
[ 16:32:31 ] mazzilliu > but im willing to look past that and pretend im a full csm
[ 16:32:36 ] Mynxee > i have not gotten CCP notification yet about mazz replacing Eva
[ 16:32:39 ] Dierdra Vaal > there was an announcement and everything
[ 16:32:46 ] Dierdra Vaal > as mazz is first alt, she would step up
[ 16:32:53 ] Vuk Lau > or maybe not?
[ 16:33:04 ] Dierdra Vaal > we'll send John an email about it then?
[ 16:33:06 ] mazzilliu > vuk are you hoping youll become a double csm or something
[ 16:33:11 ] Meissa Anunthiel > yes, but alt gets notified when that's the case, at least it was the case for lark
[ 16:33:20 ] Vuk Lau > exactly
[ 16:33:24 ] mazzilliu > how long did it take for issler?
[ 16:33:27 ] Mynxee > until notification, mazz will serve as an alt
[ 16:33:29 ] Vuk Lau > 4 months
[ 16:33:30 ] Meissa Anunthiel > so I wonder if there's something fishy or not
[ 16:33:35 ] Trebor Daehdoow > Well, de-facto, Eva isn't here, so Mazz steps up for the meeting.
[ 16:33:36 ] mazzilliu > i asked john about it
[ 16:33:42 ] Mynxee > i have sent an email already
[ 16:33:42 ] mazzilliu > he said he is still working things out
[ 16:33:48 ] mazzilliu > so i am waiting patiently
[ 16:33:55 ] Vuk Lau > kick Alison for being spy
[ 16:34:03 ] mazzilliu > kick vuk for being a terrible spy
[ 16:34:07 ] Vuk Lau > c
[ 16:34:08 ] Mynxee > stay on topic.
[ 16:34:23 ] Mynxee > regardless, we have a quorum, so let's get on with it
[ 16:34:26 ] mazzilliu > can i raise issues for next meeting?
[ 16:34:35 ] Meissa Anunthiel > either way, can we agree that despite no formal notification and until notification otherwise should it happen, mazz is full CSM member?
[ 16:34:44 ] Mynxee > not until notification from CCP that you are confirmed as full CSM.
[ 16:34:46 ] Vuk Lau > d
[ 16:35:01 ] Mynxee > and i will follow up for an answer this week.
[ 16:35:28 ] Sokratesz > excuse me was at work
[ 16:35:45 ] TeaDaze > On topic, can we enter into the minutes that CSM have requested CCP be less cryptic with their statement about Eva?
[ 16:35:51 ] Vuk Lau > sluts are working int he afternoons as well?
[ 16:36:09 ] Mynxee > that will not affect mazz's ability to perform at this meeting as an alt.
[ 16:36:38 ] Mynxee > vuk. please refrain from playground discourse during the meeting. *mom look*
[ 16:36:44 ] Vuk Lau > k
[ 16:37:16 ] Vuk Lau > can we speed up, i have brofist armor hac gang in an hour
[ 16:37:20 ] Meissa Anunthiel > ok, TD's suggestion/request. Have we officially requested that CCP be less cryptic (I think so)
[ 16:37:20 ] Mynxee > sok are you present and with full attention on the meeting?
[ 16:37:24 ] Sokratesz > yes
[ 16:38:14 ] Mynxee > Meissa: yes. Sok has sent a very good email to them about it.
[ 16:38:23 ] Mynxee > Sok, did you copy all CSMs in on that email?
[ 16:38:38 ] Sokratesz > no
[ 16:38:44 ] Sokratesz > you, robert, meissa
[ 16:38:56 ] Sokratesz > want me to forward it to everyone incl mazz?
[ 16:39:14 ] Meissa Anunthiel > post it on the internal forums, easy
[ 16:39:19 ] Mynxee > please send to other delegates after this meeting ( or during ). Not mazz yet as CCP has not confirmed her as a delegate yet. Also...
[ 16:39:46 ] mazzilliu > was it the same one you had on the forums for 30 seconds before you edited it out because i saw that
[ 16:39:48 ] Mynxee > I have asked CCP for clarification on the role of alts and asked that they not be treated as second class citizens regarding beign kept in the information loop.
[ 16:39:49 ] mazzilliu > :spy:
[ 16:40:08 ] Meissa Anunthiel > they have no reason to be mynxee
[ 16:40:19 ] Mynxee > i know, i agree with that meissa
[ 16:40:23 ] Mynxee > but CCP is cryptic about it.
[ 16:40:24 ] Meissa Anunthiel > alts who don't sign the NDA can't be in this room or in the internal forums
[ 16:40:39 ] mazzilliu > how long does the nda last? mine is a little over a year old now
[ 16:40:41 ] TeaDaze > Meissa, in this case the email from CCP was specific about not discussing the matter with Alts
[ 16:40:45 ] Mynxee > and there was some question among CSMs on various matters.
[ 16:40:46 ] mazzilliu > there was no end date on the paper
[ 16:40:52 ] Vuk Lau > [16:38:37] Sokratesz > you, robert, meissa - and why not the other delegates?
[ 16:40:53 ] Meissa Anunthiel > true TD, forgot that part
[ 16:41:09 ] TeaDaze > IIRC it lasts 5 years past you leaving the CSM
[ 16:41:20 ] TeaDaze > I'd have to check for certain though
[ 16:41:25 ] mazzilliu > ok
[ 16:41:30 ] Meissa Anunthiel > no expiration date mentionned last I checked
[ 16:41:38 ] Sokratesz > because it wasnt brought up as subject with the others
[ 16:41:45 ] Vuk Lau > so?
[ 16:41:47 ] Mynxee > so to sum up, I have two action items:1) Ask CCP to clarify Mazz as CSM delegate2) Ask CCP to clarify status/treatmetn of alts re information sharing
[ 16:41:55 ] Meissa Anunthiel > just a generic "information received while acting as MEMBER [of the CSM]" and "while acting as MEMBER", etc.
[ 16:42:52 ] Mynxee > can we move on to Issues now?
[ 16:42:57 ] Dierdra Vaal > c
[ 16:42:58 ] Meissa Anunthiel > c
[ 16:43:16 ] Mynxee > =============================ISSUES
[ 16:43:35 ] Mynxee > 1st up, Sok's issue
[ 16:43:41 ] TeaDaze > "Proprietary Information disclosed prior to the effective date of such termination and the provisions of those Paragraphs shall survive the termination of this Agreement for a period of five (5) years from the date of such termination."
[ 16:43:43 ] TeaDaze > sorry
[ 16:43:51 ] Mynxee > np
[ 16:43:56 ] Mynxee > Eve Nebula http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Eve_Nebula_%28CSM5%29
[ 16:44:01 ] Mynxee > Sok, you have the floor.
[ 16:44:21 ] Sokratesz > well, its really simple
[ 16:44:33 ] Sokratesz > when reistalling eve, doing all the settings is half the work
[ 16:44:39 ] TeaDaze > !
[ 16:44:42 ] Sokratesz > steam has shown that it can be implemented to be very effective
[ 16:44:46 ] Dierdra Vaal > !!
[ 16:44:57 ] Sokratesz > go ahead ;p
[ 16:45:03 ] Mynxee > TD go
[ 16:45:15 ] Mynxee > (REMINDER: Say "end" when done talking)
[ 16:45:30 ] TeaDaze > I agree with storing character data, disagree with storing computer settings because not all computers are made equal and I don't want to have to keep resetting my computer settings when dual boxing with differently setup machines [end]
[ 16:45:40 ] Sokratesz > if it's optional
[ 16:45:55 ] Sokratesz > and for example the location of UI elements at a given screen resolution
[ 16:45:57 ] Mynxee > dv go
[ 16:46:01 ] Dierdra Vaal > I agree that it would be good to have settings stored server side. I do think the issue should be renamed to something more descriptive to make future look-ups easier. Also, I think it would be best to remove the last paragraph as making any...
[ 16:46:13 ] Dierdra Vaal > assumptions on the technical side is highly inadvisable.
[ 16:46:14 ] Dierdra Vaal > end
[ 16:46:20 ] Sokratesz > !
[ 16:46:25 ] mazzilliu > !
[ 16:46:25 ] Mynxee > sok go
[ 16:46:32 ] Sokratesz > i just wanted to show that the amount of data is likely trivial
[ 16:46:44 ] Sokratesz > end
[ 16:46:44 ] Trebor Daehdoow > !
[ 16:46:49 ] Mynxee > mazz go
[ 16:47:05 ] mazzilliu > i remember something like this was talked about in the csm 3
[ 16:47:08 ] Meissa Anunthiel > !
[ 16:47:30 ] mazzilliu > the dev answered that putting cache stuff on ccps server would be tricky, it would end up with people's corrupted caches on a remote server instead of their harddrive
[ 16:47:38 ] mazzilliu > when stuff went wrong
[ 16:47:41 ] mazzilliu > end
[ 16:47:44 ] Sokratesz > !
[ 16:47:47 ] Mynxee > meissa go
[ 16:47:53 ] Mynxee > oh wait
[ 16:47:56 ] Mynxee > trebor is next
[ 16:48:06 ] Trebor Daehdoow > I agree with DV that deleting last sentence is probably a good thing. Other than that, NP. Probably should default to using local settings but have option to save/restore from server. but that is technical issue. end
[ 16:48:16 ] Mynxee > meissa
[ 16:48:23 ] Meissa Anunthiel > it was talked about during CSM 3 and CCP agreed on principle, I don't know if it was a formal proposal or just discussed live, but it doesn't hurt to bump it again.
[ 16:48:30 ] Meissa Anunthiel > And CCP's objection of corruption can be solved by local clients triggering a reset. no biggie.[/end]
[ 16:48:42 ] Mynxee > sok go
[ 16:48:43 ] Sokratesz > it's not the cache, just the settings, and it should only be done when the user tells the system to, so that mismatches due to crashes etc cannot happen.
[ 16:48:53 ] Vuk Lau > !
[ 16:49:25 ] Dierdra Vaal > !
[ 16:50:21 ] Mynxee > sok? done?
[ 16:50:24 ] Sokratesz > yes
[ 16:50:26 ] Sokratesz > end
[ 16:50:31 ] Mynxee > i like the general idea, the implementation suggestions are interesting, but it's up to CCP to decide how best to make that work and avoid conflicts and other issues.
[ 16:50:35 ] Mynxee > vuk go
[ 16:50:36 ] Vuk Lau > can we from now on stop discussing technical sides of proposals cause i doubt any of delegates knows exactly how eve and :ccp: works
[ 16:50:55 ] TeaDaze > !
[ 16:51:11 ] Vuk Lau > I am kinda sick of CSM wasting time and discussing can or cant something be techicaly implemented, its not up to us to discuss aka waste time on it
[ 16:51:15 ] Vuk Lau > end
[ 16:51:27 ] Mynxee > vuk: agreed somewhat.
[ 16:51:30 ] Mynxee > dv go
[ 16:51:31 ] Dierdra Vaal > I agree with vuk...
[ 16:51:33 ] Dierdra Vaal > I think we should stay away from specific implementations (server side size, data commit policies etc. The main issue here is "we would like to store our settings server side". Also, (again) the issue title should be changed to something descriptive...
[ 16:51:41 ] Dierdra Vaal > like "store client settings server side"
[ 16:51:43 ] Dierdra Vaal > end
[ 16:51:47 ] Mynxee > td go
[ 16:51:50 ] TeaDaze > This is a discussion of specification - I.e. how the feature should operate at a high level
[ 16:51:56 ] Korvin > !
[ 16:52:08 ] TeaDaze > As in what should be stored and what shouldn't. The only "technical" thing is the last line of the proposal [end]
[ 16:52:11 ] Trebor Daehdoow > !
[ 16:52:21 ] Mynxee > korvin go
[ 16:52:55 ] Korvin > if the settings are exportable in a file, why cant you use any kind of storage you like? there is dosens of free hostings capable to handle all your needs
[ 16:53:00 ] Korvin > [end]
[ 16:53:08 ] Sokratesz > !
[ 16:53:09 ] Mynxee > treb go
[ 16:53:10 ] Trebor Daehdoow > The key element of the proposal is "save settings to server, then load them back onto another computer". Suggest rewording to make that more clear. [end]
[ 16:53:18 ] Mynxee > sok go
[ 16:53:22 ] Sokratesz > but its not as easy :)
[ 16:53:37 ] Sokratesz > and right now many types of settings are not exportable
[ 16:53:38 ] Sokratesz > end
[ 16:53:48 ] Korvin > !
[ 16:53:55 ] Mynxee > korvin go
[ 16:54:35 ] Korvin > so to make them exportable is a better solution, as for the way to store it - you have the choice this way
[ 16:54:38 ] Korvin > [end]
[ 16:54:51 ] Mynxee > I suggest a vote, with the agreement that the Issue title will be edited to be more descriptive and the last line edited to as proposed previously.
[ 16:55:05 ] Dierdra Vaal > ok
[ 16:55:07 ] Vuk Lau > k
[ 16:55:08 ] Trebor Daehdoow > k
[ 16:55:18 ] Mynxee > VOTE y or n for EVE Nebula
[ 16:55:21 ] Meissa Anunthiel > y
[ 16:55:21 ] Vuk Lau > y
[ 16:55:22 ] Sokratesz > y
[ 16:55:23 ] TeaDaze > y
[ 16:55:23 ] Dierdra Vaal > y
[ 16:55:24 ] Korvin > n
[ 16:55:24 ] Mynxee > y
[ 16:55:25 ] Trebor Daehdoow > y
[ 16:55:33 ] mazzilliu > y
[ 16:55:36 ] TeaDaze > 8 for 1 against
[ 16:56:03 ] Mynxee > ISSUE: Planetary Interaction Omnibus
[ 16:56:19 ] Mynxee > http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Planetary_Interaction_Omnibus_Proposal_%28CSM%29
[ 16:56:23 ] Dierdra Vaal > !
[ 16:56:32 ] Mynxee > dv?
[ 16:56:40 ] Dierdra Vaal > I'll let trebor introduce it first :)
[ 16:56:43 ] Dierdra Vaal > just posting my !
[ 16:56:51 ] Mynxee > trebor, you have the floor.
[ 16:56:53 ] Trebor Daehdoow > Nothing really controversial here, I hope. I just packaged together all the decent player suggestions about PI into a convenient form for CCP, as a guide for player expectations on PI iteration.
[ 16:56:56 ] Trebor Daehdoow > Also I reiterated some of the things we told them in Iceland about the general direction CSM wants to see on PI. [END]
[ 16:57:08 ] Mynxee > dv go
[ 16:57:12 ] Dierdra Vaal > I disagree with "EVE players would strongly prefer to think for an hour and click for a minute", as it is an incorrect generalisation....
[ 16:57:23 ] Dierdra Vaal > it IS true that we dont want mindless clicking for 1 hour...
[ 16:57:55 ] Dierdra Vaal > however, requiring people to accumulate a lot of knowledge BEFORE they can accomplish things makes Eve even less accessible to new pilots than it already is
[ 16:58:13 ] Trebor Daehdoow > !
[ 16:58:27 ] Dierdra Vaal > obviously we dont want click fests, but front-loading all the effort (planning, etc) before actually doing anything ingame is also undesirable gameplay - especially from a new players point of view.
[ 16:58:28 ] Dierdra Vaal > end
[ 16:58:38 ] Mynxee > trebor go
[ 16:58:55 ] Trebor Daehdoow > Can you perhaps suggest some better wording? My intent was that the design should let people who want to do more thinking get an edge, same as other features in eve like the market. [end]
[ 16:59:12 ] Mynxee > I am not in favor of generalizations or assumptins about behavior of players, but I think that the omnibus can be edited to remove those and still be good and on point.
[ 16:59:31 ] TeaDaze > !
[ 16:59:32 ] Dierdra Vaal > I'll think about it and get back to you ASAP? is that ok?
[ 16:59:36 ] Mynxee > td go
[ 17:00:06 ] TeaDaze > Just want to clarify that this is a wish list of suggested improvements and that we don't expect that CCP will implement every one of them. [end]
[ 17:00:06 ] Trebor Daehdoow > !
[ 17:00:18 ] Mynxee > treb go
[ 17:00:25 ] TeaDaze > (expectation management ;))
[ 17:00:37 ] Mynxee > (agreed, TD.)
[ 17:00:41 ] Meissa Anunthiel > !
[ 17:00:55 ] Trebor Daehdoow > I am quite willing to remove all but that last sentence of the 2nd general principle, if that will be sufficient. [end]
[ 17:01:18 ] Mynxee > works for me.
[ 17:01:21 ] Mynxee > meissa go
[ 17:01:37 ] Meissa Anunthiel > I disagree with one item on the list:- "show planet types in a solar system on the star map", it removes the exploration and finding concepts. I'm happy with the rest but I'd like that one removed. [/end]
[ 17:01:57 ] Dierdra Vaal > !
[ 17:02:09 ] Mynxee > dv go
[ 17:02:18 ] Dierdra Vaal > the planet types are already on dotlan. no need to explore :) (I know its an out of game tool, but still). end
[ 17:02:20 ] Korvin > !
[ 17:02:23 ] Meissa Anunthiel > !
[ 17:02:31 ] Mynxee > korvin go
[ 17:02:48 ] Korvin > DV said it - its on system info
[ 17:02:52 ] Korvin > [end]
[ 17:03:00 ] Mynxee > meissa go
[ 17:03:12 ] Meissa Anunthiel > the information is inaccurate on dotlan, and if people want to share that info, more power to them, but we're talking in-game, which is different. Also, show info is not accurate either. [/end]
[ 17:04:11 ] Korvin > Old Man Star
[ 17:04:17 ] Korvin > check the info
[ 17:04:28 ] Korvin > orbital bodies
[ 17:04:29 ] Meissa Anunthiel > the info in there is inaccurate
[ 17:04:42 ] Dierdra Vaal > that sounds like a bug rather than a feature ;)
[ 17:04:46 ] Korvin > it is accurate
[ 17:04:49 ] Trebor Daehdoow > !
[ 17:04:56 ] Mynxee > trebor go
[ 17:05:17 ] Trebor Daehdoow > As long as the same (inaccurate) info is in the map as is in system info, is there an issue? [end]
[ 17:06:03 ] TeaDaze > Other than the fact that known inaccurate information should be bugfixed?
[ 17:06:25 ] Meissa Anunthiel > In my opinion, that information should go, but it's already there if you show info, what I wouldn't want is to emphasize the feeling we want to make it easier to find planets. [/end]
[ 17:06:47 ] Mynxee > my position is that this is an omnibus...a menu of possibilities, and that we don't need to overanalyze any one of them per se, as its not necessarily requesting any given item be implemented. it is suggesting ideas only.
[ 17:07:06 ] Dierdra Vaal > !
[ 17:07:10 ] Mynxee > dv go
[ 17:07:36 ] Meissa Anunthiel > !
[ 17:07:52 ] Korvin > !
[ 17:07:56 ] Dierdra Vaal > regarding the re-wording of the first principle (thank you for that btw trebor), instead of saying "harder to figure out", emphasise that players like complexity and many options they can figure out and optimise
[ 17:08:05 ] Dierdra Vaal > making it harder can be done in many ways
[ 17:08:11 ] Dierdra Vaal > many of them not fun at all
[ 17:08:14 ] Dierdra Vaal > end.
[ 17:08:22 ] Mynxee > meissa go
[ 17:08:43 ] Meissa Anunthiel > By bundling all these ideas together, we send the message that we stand behind all these ideas. I agree with all of them except that one, I would have prefered that one item to go but it seems I'm the only one, so I'll vote for it according to the gener
[ 17:08:59 ] Meissa Anunthiel > al merit. We can forget this item then [/end]
[ 17:09:08 ] Mynxee > korvin go
[ 17:09:47 ] Trebor Daehdoow > !
[ 17:10:08 ] Korvin > like Meissa said, if ill make a highsec omnibus, and one of the suggestions will be like "make concord everywhere" - should we agree on that, if the other suggestions are on a right direction?
[ 17:10:47 ] Vuk Lau > ?
[ 17:10:51 ] Meissa Anunthiel > (depends how strongly you oppose that one item if you can't get it removed trebor)
[ 17:11:20 ] Meissa Anunthiel > err, korvin, not trebor, my bad
[ 17:11:26 ] Trebor Daehdoow > Did we just lose Mynx?
[ 17:11:32 ] Dierdra Vaal > she's ingame
[ 17:11:33 ] Mynxee > korvin, i take your point but that's an extreme compared to this particular item.. also korvin are you done?
[ 17:11:49 ] Korvin > [end]
[ 17:11:53 ] Mynxee > trebor go
[ 17:11:59 ] Trebor Daehdoow > OK, with respect to DV's rewording request, how about:
[ 17:12:03 ] Trebor Daehdoow > We recommend that Planetary Interaction evolve to make it easier for us to do things, but at the same time, provide subtlety and depth that provides an advantage to players who are willing to take the time to think.
[ 17:12:38 ] Trebor Daehdoow > and with regard to Meissa's concerns about that one item, I have no problem with adding a caveat to it regarding those concerns.
[ 17:12:43 ] Dierdra Vaal > thats perfect thank you :)
[ 17:12:45 ] Trebor Daehdoow > [end]
[ 17:12:51 ] Meissa Anunthiel > !
[ 17:12:58 ] Mynxee > rewording sounds fine to me. meissa go
[ 17:13:21 ] Meissa Anunthiel > trebor, my concern isn't shared by all, most actually oppose my concern that having to find the planets is desirable, so leave it as is without a caveat
[ 17:13:30 ] Meissa Anunthiel > [/end]
[ 17:13:33 ] TeaDaze > !
[ 17:13:35 ] Trebor Daehdoow > /emote bowsto Meissa
[ 17:13:40 ] Mynxee > td go
[ 17:14:04 ] TeaDaze > Just would like to reword from make it easier to do thing to require less clicking [end]
[ 17:14:49 ] Dierdra Vaal > !
[ 17:14:54 ] Mynxee > may i suggest that since we're in general agreement, that wordsmithing can be done among you outside the meeting?
[ 17:14:59 ] Mynxee > end. dv go
[ 17:15:00 ] Dierdra Vaal > I think we can vote :)
[ 17:15:01 ] Dierdra Vaal > end
[ 17:15:10 ] Mynxee > agreed.
[ 17:15:15 ] Mynxee > VOTE Y or N on PI Omnibus
[ 17:15:17 ] Vuk Lau > y
[ 17:15:19 ] TeaDaze > y
[ 17:15:19 ] Sokratesz > y
[ 17:15:20 ] Trebor Daehdoow > y
[ 17:15:20 ] Mynxee > y
[ 17:15:23 ] Korvin > =
[ 17:15:24 ] Korvin > y
[ 17:15:24 ] Dierdra Vaal > y
[ 17:15:34 ] Meissa Anunthiel > y
[ 17:16:00 ] TeaDaze > 8 for waiting on Mazz
[ 17:16:07 ] mazzilliu > y
[ 17:16:10 ] TeaDaze > 9 for
[ 17:16:18 ] Trebor Daehdoow > /emote bows to everyone
[ 17:16:20 ] mazzilliu > sorry there is a fight
[ 17:16:43 ] Mynxee > Next Issue: Contact Folders in EVE Gate http://evelopedia.com/en/wiki/Implement_Contact_Folders_in_EVE_Gate_%28CSM%29
[ 17:16:52 ] Dierdra Vaal > !!
[ 17:17:28 ] Meissa Anunthiel > !
[ 17:17:36 ] Mynxee > This is my issue, so I'll state it simply enough: We used to be able to store contacts in folders, now with EVE Gate we can't. Folders would make managing contacts much easier.
[ 17:17:38 ] Mynxee > dv go
[ 17:17:42 ] Dierdra Vaal > Didnt the eve gate team tell us they were working on this? Labels/folders (dont recall the exact terms they used). End. (btw sorry for dual exclamation marks)
[ 17:18:00 ] Korvin > !
[ 17:18:08 ] Mynxee > imho i don't think labels and folders are the equivalent. end.
[ 17:18:11 ] Mynxee > meissa go
[ 17:18:13 ] Meissa Anunthiel > Request for clarification: you want the folders to have labels or you want labels that act as virtual folders or you want both? [/end]
[ 17:18:42 ] Dierdra Vaal > !
[ 17:18:49 ] Mynxee > to clarify: want folders that work similar to those in the Notepad window.
[ 17:18:52 ] Mynxee > end. korvin go
[ 17:18:58 ] Korvin > we did told them, but we need to formalise it, and be able to track it on a backlog and prioritize [end]
[ 17:19:23 ] Mynxee > dv go
[ 17:19:32 ] Dierdra Vaal > If you can assign labels to contacts, doesnt that mean you can filter based on labels. It'd give you the same functionality as folders do? What do you feel is the functional difference between folders and labels?
[ 17:19:34 ] Dierdra Vaal > end
[ 17:19:50 ] Meissa Anunthiel > !
[ 17:20:22 ] Mynxee > meissa go
[ 17:20:32 ] Meissa Anunthiel > labels are searchable things, folders take up real estate on screen. I favor the former over the latter. But that's me. Either way they get the message we want to know who's who. so doesn't matter [/end]
[ 17:20:33 ] Dierdra Vaal > I would actually like an answer to my question please
[ 17:20:50 ] Mynxee > i'm thinking how best to explain it.
[ 17:24:26 ] Mynxee > to be honest, i can't really come up wtih a good differentiator, except that labels seem less like containers and more liek categorizers
[ 17:24:34 ] Mynxee > folders are more like containers
[ 17:24:38 ] Dierdra Vaal > they are like categorisers
[ 17:24:51 ] Trebor Daehdoow > an item can have many labels, but only one folder
[ 17:24:53 ] Dierdra Vaal > but it all depends on how you display your categories
[ 17:25:01 ] Dierdra Vaal > they're more versatile than folders
[ 17:25:28 ] Dierdra Vaal > and since the Eve gate team is already working on this, I dont think it needs to be raised again.
[ 17:25:31 ] Dierdra Vaal > end
[ 17:26:17 ] Trebor Daehdoow > !
[ 17:26:20 ] Mynxee > i think having it in the backlog woudl be useful. end.
[ 17:26:25 ] Mynxee > trebor go
[ 17:26:27 ] TeaDaze > !
[ 17:26:37 ] Trebor Daehdoow > The point is to put them on notice that this better not be vaporware.
[ 17:26:41 ] Trebor Daehdoow > [end]
[ 17:26:43 ] Meissa Anunthiel > !
[ 17:26:46 ] Mynxee > td go
[ 17:27:09 ] TeaDaze > I don't mind how it is implemented re: folders vs labels. Just they need to implement something and whilst they might already be planning something us adding our voice can't hurt. [end]
[ 17:27:21 ] Mynxee > meissa go
[ 17:27:22 ] Meissa Anunthiel > worst case scenario, it's already done and the proposal serves no purpose, best case scenario they forgot it and do it because we ask. I don't see us losing in including it. [/end]
[ 17:27:44 ] Mynxee > I believe we can vote, then?
[ 17:27:49 ] Dierdra Vaal > c
[ 17:28:02 ] Mynxee > VOTE Y or N on Implement Contact Folders in EVE Gate
[ 17:28:04 ] Meissa Anunthiel > y
[ 17:28:04 ] Dierdra Vaal > n
[ 17:28:05 ] Mynxee > y
[ 17:28:05 ] Trebor Daehdoow > y
[ 17:28:05 ] Korvin > y
[ 17:28:05 ] TeaDaze > y
[ 17:28:22 ] mazzilliu > y
[ 17:28:31 ] Sokratesz > y
[ 17:28:58 ] Dierdra Vaal > mr lau?
[ 17:29:03 ] TeaDaze > 7 for, 1 against. Waiting on Vuk
[ 17:29:24 ] TeaDaze > I guess his armour hac gang started ;)
[ 17:29:37 ] Mynxee > yes. he has 1 minute to respond.
[ 17:30:31 ] Vuk Lau > y
[ 17:30:39 ] Mynxee > under the wire :)
[ 17:30:39 ] TeaDaze > 8 for, 1 against
[ 17:30:44 ] Vuk Lau > i am preping launch sorry
[ 17:30:50 ] Vuk Lau > lunch*
[ 17:31:06 ] Mynxee > ISSUE: Show Drone Damage Done in Logs http://evelopedia.com/en/wiki/Show_Drone_Damage_in_Logs_%28CSM%29
[ 17:31:29 ] Dierdra Vaal > !
[ 17:31:45 ] Meissa Anunthiel > !
[ 17:32:20 ] Mynxee > I am raising this issue. Simple: Drone users do not get any information about how much damage their drones do in the logs. This proposal asks or the information already being captured and stored in target's logs to be written to aggressor's logs. end.
[ 17:32:22 ] Mynxee > dv go
[ 17:32:31 ] Dierdra Vaal > I like the idea, tho I wonder if this may not generate a lot of extra network traffic in big battles? I guess its not really our concern but I wouldnt want to make the lag worse. end
[ 17:32:49 ] Mynxee > meissa go
[ 17:32:53 ] Meissa Anunthiel > Except for drone bots, which are a minority, the drone damage is not really significant, the amount of extra logs that would be generated by the spam of minor drone damage would be detrimental in readability of the logs (except if they go straight to fi
[ 17:33:20 ] Meissa Anunthiel > file, in which case I'm fine, but if they're visible in the log visible in-game, it's spam. [/end]
[ 17:34:25 ] Mynxee > the intent of the proposal is for those who fly drone boats to be able to better assess the damage their drones are doing and adjust tactics as needed. so i believe the intent is to show that in the combat logs ingame.
[ 17:34:27 ] Mynxee > end
[ 17:34:35 ] Meissa Anunthiel > !
[ 17:34:42 ] Mynxee > meissa go
[ 17:34:53 ] Dierdra Vaal > !
[ 17:34:54 ] Meissa Anunthiel > then may I request that the inclusion of drone damage be optional?
[ 17:34:56 ] Meissa Anunthiel > [/end]
[ 17:35:23 ] Mynxee > a good idea, meissa. one i would agree with and willing to reword the proposal accordingly.
[ 17:35:26 ] Mynxee > end. go dv
[ 17:35:39 ] Dierdra Vaal > I agree with meissa's request ^, as well as request that you include both his (log spam) and my (extra network traffic) concerns in the 'Cons' paragraph?
[ 17:35:40 ] Dierdra Vaal > end
[ 17:35:56 ] Mynxee > agreed dv. willing to do both.
[ 17:36:02 ] Dierdra Vaal > ty ma'am
[ 17:36:11 ] Mynxee > shall we vote then, as there is no other apparent discussion?
[ 17:36:56 ] Mynxee > VOTE Y or N for Show Drone Damage in Logs, with amendments that damage messages be optional and that concern about lag be added to the "Cons" section of te proposal.
[ 17:36:59 ] Vuk Lau > y
[ 17:37:01 ] TeaDaze > y
[ 17:37:04 ] Korvin > y
[ 17:37:04 ] Mynxee > y
[ 17:37:05 ] Meissa Anunthiel > y
[ 17:37:15 ] mazzilliu > y
[ 17:37:17 ] Dierdra Vaal > y
[ 17:37:22 ] Sokratesz > y
[ 17:37:24 ] Trebor Daehdoow > y (damn, now I don't have the only 9-0 today)
[ 17:37:41 ] TeaDaze > 9 for
[ 17:37:57 ] Mynxee > ISSUE: Make Cyno Effect Awe-Inspiring Again http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Make_Cyno_Effect_Awe-Inspiring_Again_%28CSM%29
[ 17:38:03 ] Vuk Lau > !
[ 17:38:08 ] Meissa Anunthiel > Yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
[ 17:38:31 ] Dierdra Vaal > !
[ 17:38:35 ] Korvin > sparkles-sparkles!
[ 17:38:47 ] Mynxee > ok, my last one :) Obviously this is not the most important thing CCP could do to fix eve, but it's been out there for a long time, and has 550 supports. Also, new cyno effect is weak and lame. I WANT MY BOOM AND POW BACK! end.
[ 17:38:51 ] Mynxee > go vuk
[ 17:38:53 ] Vuk Lau > raised to CCP 50 times already, and they are all well aware of it, so despite me being fapfap on this I dont see the point
[ 17:39:03 ] Vuk Lau > of raising the issue
[ 17:39:04 ] Vuk Lau > end
[ 17:39:12 ] Mynxee > dv go
[ 17:39:16 ] Dierdra Vaal > Why are we, 2 years later, STILL asking for this effect? I dont care if CCP wants to wait for a 'general effects overhaul'. The players dont want to wait. Do this already! end
[ 17:39:47 ] Sokratesz > !
[ 17:39:50 ] Mynxee > 100% agreed!!! Let's push this one through and then I can champion it fervently!
[ 17:39:52 ] Mynxee > sok go
[ 17:40:14 ] Sokratesz > we should ignore it now, and as soion as we have access to the backlog make it high priority, no point raising it again
[ 17:40:15 ] Sokratesz > end
[ 17:40:36 ] Mynxee > that's assuming we ever get the information we asked for. end.
[ 17:40:53 ] Vuk Lau > !
[ 17:40:58 ] Mynxee > vuk go
[ 17:41:13 ] Mynxee > (sok dc'd)
[ 17:41:24 ] Vuk Lau > I am all for this as I said, but I dont see a point for rereasing the issue. I will vote yes ofc, but I just dont see the point (fuck Sok) end
[ 17:41:47 ] Korvin > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jVArh60DD8
[ 17:41:55 ] Mynxee > i did review the previously raised issues in the wiki and could not find a duplicate one. do you have a link, vuk? end.
[ 17:42:19 ] Mynxee > (sok returns)
[ 17:42:41 ] Dierdra Vaal > http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Cyno_effect_%28CSM%29
[ 17:43:00 ] Mynxee > thanks DV
[ 17:43:07 ] Dierdra Vaal > thats the one thats been brought up again
[ 17:43:13 ] Dierdra Vaal > (and again and again)
[ 17:43:52 ] Mynxee > and points to the same thread, as well.
[ 17:44:15 ] Dierdra Vaal > si
[ 17:44:18 ] Mynxee > alright, this can be championed as is...and i will post in that thread the link to the wiki page.
[ 17:44:29 ] Dierdra Vaal > you are withdrawing the issue
[ 17:44:30 ] Dierdra Vaal > ?
[ 17:44:34 ] Dierdra Vaal > (your issue)
[ 17:44:40 ] Mynxee > no vote needed, we'll just ask again for it. and again and again.
[ 17:44:46 ] Dierdra Vaal > and again
[ 17:44:47 ] Dierdra Vaal > but louder
[ 17:44:57 ] Mynxee > i withdraw the issue as a duplicate.
[ 17:45:08 ] Mynxee > that concludes the issues discussion.
[ 17:45:26 ] Mynxee > all that is left is Other Business. I have no specific topics. Does anyone else?
[ 17:45:32 ] Dierdra Vaal > !
[ 17:45:35 ] Sokratesz > !
[ 17:45:38 ] Mynxee > dv go
[ 17:45:39 ] Dierdra Vaal > I'm melting. end
[ 17:45:44 ] Sokratesz > I SENT EVERYONE THE MAAIL
[ 17:45:46 ] Mynxee > sok go
[ 17:45:47 ] Sokratesz > SLASH CAPS
[ 17:45:52 ] Sokratesz > yeh its stupidly warm here
[ 17:45:55 ] Mynxee > alright.
[ 17:46:01 ] Trebor Daehdoow > !
[ 17:46:05 ] Sokratesz > if ccp dont release a statement on ankhmas
[ 17:46:07 ] Mynxee > trebor go
[ 17:46:09 ] Sokratesz > within say, 48 hrs
[ 17:46:13 ] Trebor Daehdoow > http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Planetary_Interaction_Omnibus_Proposal_%28CSM%29 updated, please let me know if tweakage required.
[ 17:46:14 ] Sokratesz > we should request it again officially
[ 17:46:21 ] Korvin > dont you have air conditioning?
[ 17:46:29 ] Trebor Daehdoow > [end]
[ 17:46:36 ] Mynxee > sok, yes, will do.
[ 17:46:39 ] mazzilliu > !
[ 17:46:45 ] Mynxee > mazz go.
[ 17:46:54 ] mazzilliu > we should privately ask ccp for an ETA on when we get a clarification on ankhmas
[ 17:47:22 ] mazzilliu > we shouldnt make public statements before it becomes clear ccp doesnt want to talk to us about that, before then we should speak with ccp only
[ 17:47:26 ] mazzilliu > end
[ 17:47:41 ] Mynxee > that is exactly what CCP has already told us.
[ 17:48:24 ] mazzilliu > did ccp give an ETA on any clarification, or if it will ever happen?
[ 17:48:33 ] Meissa Anunthiel > they didn't
[ 17:48:48 ] Mynxee > my take is that they have said all they are going to say about it to us and the players.
[ 17:49:01 ] Sokratesz > petur told me this:
[ 17:49:05 ] Mynxee > we are now going to push for them to clarify.
[ 17:49:10 ] Meissa Anunthiel > (RAIN! woooohoooo, still 33°C, but there's water)
[ 17:49:26 ] Sokratesz > after his first mail
[ 17:49:27 ] Sokratesz > me:
[ 17:49:28 ] Sokratesz > O...k... I wasn't expecting that :/I assume she will be replaced by the first alternate?- Tim
[ 17:49:36 ] Sokratesz > Yes, we will officially announce that in a few days. -Pétur
[ 17:49:51 ] Sokratesz > so 'a few days' after wednesday evening
[ 17:50:01 ] Vuk Lau > Sok why are u comunicating with CCP about it in the 1st place?
[ 17:50:13 ] Sokratesz > i just mailed him with a simple question
[ 17:50:25 ] Vuk Lau > well imagine all delegates doing the same
[ 17:50:30 ] Mynxee > yes and notsharing that information on the forums as has been requested so many times in the past so that all of us are in the same information loop?
[ 17:50:35 ] Vuk Lau > isnt that why we have chairman
[ 17:50:39 ] Mynxee > by forums, i mean internal forums.
[ 17:50:43 ] Sokratesz > i didnt thought this one bit very important
[ 17:50:54 ] Vuk Lau > thats the problem, you didnt thought
[ 17:50:57 ] Sokratesz > i havent heard anything since my big mail from yesterday
[ 17:51:09 ] Vuk Lau > so why sending the big mail
[ 17:51:13 ] Vuk Lau > on your own as well
[ 17:51:14 ] Mynxee > imagine how many "unimportant" csm messages Petur gets spammed with if every delegate is sending them off.
[ 17:51:32 ] Mynxee > and also, the "big" email was done without consulting with me first. or any other CSM as far as I know.
[ 17:51:34 ] Vuk Lau > lets all start spaming csm-admin email with everything that cross our minds
[ 17:51:40 ] Vuk Lau > seriously
[ 17:51:45 ] Vuk Lau > what the fuck is wrong with ppl
[ 17:51:56 ] Mynxee > chain of command, and protocol. observe it, please, going forward.
[ 17:52:02 ] Sokratesz > chain of command/
[ 17:52:05 ] Sokratesz > wait what
[ 17:52:10 ] Mynxee > so to speak :)
[ 17:52:24 ] mazzilliu > we are not allowed to mail csm admin anymore?
[ 17:52:26 ] Sokratesz > i do not have to answer to you for everything i do
[ 17:52:33 ] Vuk Lau > if u think there is something to be raised, raised it internaly
[ 17:52:42 ] Mynxee > no but information sharing on csm-wide issues would be preferred
[ 17:52:42 ] Vuk Lau > to prevent all delegates sending it on their own
[ 17:52:49 ] Vuk Lau > to keep others in the loop
[ 17:53:01 ] Sokratesz > i do understand you like to be kept informed but in this small case i didnt think it very important, i have had long email conversations with petur in the past
[ 17:53:07 ] Mynxee > that email was related to a fairly important issue
[ 17:53:09 ] Vuk Lau > and to prevent looking stupid if we are all doing the same shit
[ 17:53:31 ] Vuk Lau > we all had long conversations with both Petur, John or Ejyo int he past
[ 17:53:35 ] Meissa Anunthiel > errr, I agree on principle, but there's no information in the mail he sent or the mail he received. None that wasn't already available in the mail we got
[ 17:53:44 ] Vuk Lau > but we are still not spaming them with all we think its appropriate
[ 17:53:47 ] Dierdra Vaal > !
[ 17:53:55 ] Mynxee > except that the rest of us didn't know about it til it was sent.
[ 17:53:58 ] Mynxee > go dv
[ 17:54:03 ] Dierdra Vaal > may I suggest that we close the meeting if you guys want to rabble rabble about emails? end
[ 17:54:15 ] Sokratesz > sure
[ 17:54:17 ] Mynxee > yes. meeting adjourned.
[ 17:54:20 ] Dierdra Vaal > \o/
[ 17:54:22 ] Sokratesz > /emote grabs brass knuckles
[ 17:54:27 ] TeaDaze > ===========================
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