Arek'Jaalan Mailing List W26: Ancient Races Update

From Myyona
Subject Ancient Races Update #8
Date 114.01.01 10:54
Content Happy New Year and welcome to YC114 everybody.

Things are still heating up in the Ancient Races division as we are still getting more projects started, such as Project Codebreaker that Valerie has announced.

Personally, I have just finished first draft of the paper on The Sleeper - Jovian Connection which is a massive piece were I put together all the little pieces of clues obtained so far on the Sleepers, Talocans, Jovians and even Yan Jungs into what I see as the most fitting theory on what happened millenia ago. I recommend everybody to give it a read and leave comments on the Discussion page.

Work is not done though, and I look forward to what we will uncover in the coming year.

Best regards

From Myyona
Subject Ancient Races Update #8
Date 114.01.01 10:56
Content Should have been update #8, sorry.

How fast these things go these days.

From Wyke Mossari
Subject Ancient Races Update #8
Date 114.01.01 13:12
Content Regarding: The Yan Jung Nation

Sebast Mathon is able to "unravel the mysteries of the (Yan Jung) micro processor" using a "Binary Transpositional Code" This strongly implies the Yan Jung used binary computers.

The evidence of Trinary Data and the Trinary Hub implies fundamental different approach to data processing for the Jove and Sleepers.


From Ander Fred
Subject Ancient Races Update #8
Date 114.01.01 13:59
Content You start off with the assumption that the Jove and Sleepers are the same and never actually explain the assumption. Frankly, though an interesting piece of work, this doesn't amount to anything. There is little to no evidence that the Sleepers destroyed the Talocan. Indeed, the Talocan remains mechanically intact. Nor does it explain quarantine, the legends found in Ani, along with many other facets.

I am unable to agree with just about anything in there, as it is all based on the assumption from one piece of trinary data, so far as I can tell.

Please note, the fact that the Minmatar and Amarr empires both use the same method of FTL communication does not make the Amarr a splinter of the Minmatar, nor the Minmatar a splinter of the Amarr. Extrapolating from one piece of shared tech is just a bad idea.

From Myyona
Subject Ancient Races Update #8
Date 114.01.02 21:13
Content Show me evidence to the contrary and I will be happy.

I do not base my theory on the findings of the Trinary data, in fact that piece of information is not even in this article at all. I base my theory as, what I consider, the most probable explaination to all the questions it answers given the current sources available.

You (anyone) are welcome to disagree completely based on no validity of your own. This is just a theory, and it is its nature to be partly or completely wrong. All the pieces of the puzzle available can be used to create more than one image, but when the question comes to what theory I can present that I feel explains the most this is the one.

By the way, FTL communications? Pft, everybody knows that was invented by the Gallenteans and the only reason why the similarity in transfer protocols and technology is because CONCORD enforce it. ((link))


From Ser Geant Pepper
Subject Ancient Races Update #8
Date 114.01.03 01:58
Content Myyona,

Thank you very much for all of the time you spent on your excellent paper on Sleepers and Jovians. It is very well researched and contains an excellent list of references. It will be an invaluable source of information for new members of Arek'jaalan like me. I learned a lot from it.
Kind regards,
Ser Geant Pepper

From Aedeal
Subject Ancient Races Update #8
Date 114.01.03 14:14
Content CONCORD doesn't enforce the use, it enforces the privacy. But the point is still intact anyway. And you skip on so many important points, evacuation, the Jovian disease not being infectious, there's nothing to link the Sleepers to asking the Jan Yung for help, there's nothing linking the Jovian disease to the downfall of other races.

To me, it's got a lot of stuff missing. I'll concede it's a good stab at it, but it just assumes too much. It's not so much 'evidence to the contrary', it's 'evidence to support'. The problem I have is often it makes sense in my head, but I keep assumptions I made without explaining them. That may be the issue here.

Afterthought: We know the FTL we use was invented by the Gallente, but I bet you the ancient races have their own FTL communications. Again, beside the point, but a nod towards the Trinary data project, the use of a similar piece of tech doesn't mean they are the same.

From Eradan Risalo
Subject Ancient Races Update #8
Date 114.01.03 16:04
Content The topic is very interesting. I have read Myyona project, etc etc. All the assumptions are very intriguing. Nonetheless my point here is ;

Please dont use single quote ' in your emails. This would ease the readings.
Thanks, and you all are doing a great job!

From Vechtor
Subject Ancient Races Update #8
Date 114.01.04 00:33
Content Our starting research in the Talocan History and Talocan Technology being conducted at a Class 5 Anoikis system currently works with the "most probable" assumption that Sleepers and Talocans actually lived together at the same time on several areas of uncharted space and didn't have any reasons to fight eachother. There is no evidence whatsoever that a fight ever took place between Sleepers and Talocans based on all data gathered so far by inumerous people once involved in Talocan research and we coudn't find anything different than that. Based on what I've read on your theory you give the impression that a "conflict" took place between them that was connected to the Sleepers trying to find a cure for the Jovian Disease:

"It is difficult to know if the Talocans still existed as a society when the Sleepers showed up, but it is certain that if they did the Sleepers eventually destroyed the Talocan civilization in the attempt to fix their own corrupted DNA. "

Do you think you can elaborate more on those assumptions?



From Borascus
Subject Ancient Races Update #8
Date 114.01.04 02:55
Content Whilst travelling through Barkrik, to encounter the story of the Thukker's in Hek; that discussed the Digital Upload society we now refer to as Sleepers, I encountered a small hub, the location of Akraun Maertigor, with a NeoCom description as follows:

Before the technology for employing crystals for faster-than-light communications was invented various other techniques were used to bolster celestial communications. Half a millennia ago the Amarrians discovered a space phenomenon, places in space that seemed to echo with other similar places elsewhere. They learnt to tap into these echoes, greatly boosting the strength of communication devices. Though these places are today largely neglected, there are some people that feel a connection them. The Hyperbole Nexus is one such a place.

The description does infer that FTL communications were present prior to the crystals now used. The echo-tapping technique, would for me, rely on the Yan Jung Singularity Fact Sheet. Hence a proposed relationship between Yan Jung and Sleeper races. Although I do not posit that the Amarrians learnt from either.

Of note: The two doctors that are cited as finding comparable relics of Titan pre-cursors, (finding one on Matar and the other in W-Space) draw conclusions that the time apart for each relic's age is approximately 1000 years.

In this instance, when comapared with Project Compass' initial findings:

While the Project Leads are still collecting data, preliminary calculations are ongoing and some tentative conclusions can be announced. So far, . This cluster is roughly located to the galactic southeast of New Eden, in approximately the same plane, though perhaps slightly lower than New Eden. More results will be announced as they become available.

It would become feasible to evaluate the travel time of the ships, and at 1250-1350 light years from the Center of New Eden, the ships would either have to:

A. Use Wormholes to achieve their target destination. Perhaps artificial w'holes if you consider the other Yan Jung relics.

B. Travel at close to the speed of light for the duration. Although it can be proven that Warp drives were built prior to the original migration from the EVE Gate, it is also apparent that the technology to do so left New Eden's cultural and technological identity soon after the EVE Gate's collapse. Two conclusions inter-twined would lead to that time being: Around the Late Yan Jung era.

C. Be part of the original migration from the EVE Gate and not have a definate travel time at all. Relying on technology already present from pre-EVE Ancestry.

I intended to assist Myyona with this subject although I lacked the time to discuss properly. The above is about as far as I got, which is nowhere near as detailed as Myyona's findings.

On a more technical note: The axial measurements carried out by the Doctor's indicated that no modern dreadnought could compare: The average Dreadnought axial length is 4km, with one exception at 5km. The Jovian Motherships are cited in historical text as being 4km in axial length and pre-cursing modern day Titan's, If anything the vessels the Doctor's are referring to have the capacity to hold more cryogenically frozen people than the Jovian motherships.

The piece found on Matar pre-dates the unification of the Tribes, BUT not the colonization of Matar. This had me searching for a common ancestral link between some Minmatar tribes and the owners of the vessel these parts belong to. Although I had been spending to much time looking at the Nefantar to elaborate across the board I have yet to find a credible witness/reference/citation for any link.

The Nefantar hypothesis, although not a bona fide Project, is based on the design similarity of the Sleeper Enclaves and Constructs and the old Nefantar Bases in Ammatar space. It's not yielding any insight.


From Myyona
Subject Ancient Races Update #8
Date 114.01.04 16:46
Content Certainly.

There has to my knowledge never been a find of Talocan space based weaponry of any kind. Neither the wreckages of their ships or their structures bear any marks of turret placements or any other defensive technology whatsoever. They likely felt safe due to the general inaccessibility to w-space. It is therefore no surprise that if a hostile group were to attack them they would be hopelessly outmatched. Further, as I speculate the Sleepers had a strong interest in not initially harming the Talocans, due to needing them for their research, it makes sense that no shots ever were fired. You state yourself that the most probable assumption is that the two races inhibited w-space at the same time, but if they did, why is it only the Talocan who have seemingly completely disappeared and who gutted the Talocan ships and left them to drift? The Talocans themselves?

The Sleeper databanks near Talocan structures and the Talocan research topic at the Mirror tells me that one race was studying the other. Either in retrospect or actively. Maybe the Talocans had already perished at the time of the Sleepers arrival, for reasons unknown, but that is the least probable scenario.

We further have the issue of explaining the classification of the different sites as well as the w-space systems themselves. I can only make sense of it if all sites have been classified by the Sleepers and the system locus signatures refer to classification. Maybe different experiments or stages of disease.


From Kaito Haakkainen
Subject Ancient Races Update #8
Date 114.01.04 18:32
Content Have you considered the, pessimistically more realistic, alternative? That someone with access to w-space has already removed or hidden all examples of Talocan weaponry?

The Jovians are well known for restricting access to offensive technology; they have advanced cloaking technology, increasingly evident connections to the Sleepers and, perhaps most significantly, someone certainly must have "disposed" of an awful lot of free-floating tech over the years here in New Eden. By rights the cluster should be well populated with relics from the Terrans to the Takmahl, it isn't.

Someone has gone to considerable effort to keep the past from us, whether this has been for our own good remains to be seen. If you’re looking for a suspect re the lack of Talocan weaponry I'd take the Jovians, with their means, motivation, and opportunity, over the idea of an entire Empire of pacifists any day.

From Myyona
Subject Ancient Races Update #8
Date 114.01.04 21:47
Content Are you saying "the Jovians did it" is a more realistic alternative?

I agree, as pointed out in the article, that it seems odd why the Jovians, who normally hoard knowledge and information, has made no official communication regarding w-space. I am guessing they are keeping their actions hidden if they are doing any but as there has been no direct sighting of a Jovian vessel in w-space it is pure guesswork if they are there or not. Guessing that maybe they had been looted by an Emperial owned corporation would have been more trustworthy as at least we know these operate in w-space.

Besides, why would they only dissable Talocan weaponry and let the Sleeper behind? I mean, strategic cruisers have immense combat capabilities so if the Jovians were trying to restrict access to offensive technology it seems like they failed. Besides, I am not familiar with the Jovians ever restricting access to offensive technology; they gave pod technology to the Caldarians which likely changed the outcome of the Caldari-Gallente War. They also participated on the creation of CONCORD which in no way seem to lack in offensive capabilities.

And there is not even an indication of a gunport or other sign that the Talocan structures ever wore any weaponry.

Lastly, this "increasingly evident connection to the Sleepers" is exactly what I am proposing and what is being contested in this discussion. I am glad we share thoughts on that point, but it is apparently not something everybody take for granted.


From Kaito Haakkainen
Subject Ancient Races Update #8
Date 114.01.05 00:10
Content Forgive me for pointing out the obvious but having no direct sightings of Jovian vessels is pretty much the standard arrangement and a poor angle against the idea of the Jove having been active in w-space. The same technology that makes them so elusive may also explain the absence of structures in "The Line" and could conceal a lot of things we don't know about because they have been removed or cloaked. In this case we might be fortunate enough to have found a clue to vanished items, though who knows how much could have missed if the theory were true. In any case it is difficult to imagine the Jove, with their renowned curiosity, would not have ventured into w-space. Such activity is more likely still if they really do have connections to the Sleepers. I know it falls in with popular opinion but perhaps they have been up to something and perhaps they have been busy over there.

As for the Directorate aligned Jove restricting technology take a look at your own example, CONCORD plays a major role in maintaining a balance of military technology between the empires. They presumably made a pretty impressive clean-up job after leaving Heaven or the Angel Cartel may well have dominated the entire cluster, again they didn't get everything but they didn't leave enough to give anyone an edge. Lastly, they've never seen fit to trade their advanced weaponry with us, instead having laws regarding high-tech trade and a general policy of non-interference. While some may feel the hydrostatic capsule is a weapon I like to think of us as something more, and that we can be so much more.

While I'm not privy to why the Jovians haven't, to our knowledge, interfered with the Sleepers I can point towards most reverse engineered Sleeper technology being only a step above our own, that the Sleepers may well still be around, and that there may be historical issues at work.

Take a closer look at the Talocan, the ships have been gutted and left to drift, the silos are empty, their contents beyond our present science, and mark the prongs seen at the fore of every known Talocan ship variant. Though to that latter I must admit we'd have no idea what remaining weapon parts, fittings, or housings would look like when we have no idea of the nature of their weaponry. It's not just the weaponry either, where's the Talocan technology the Sleepers were studying, where are the ships that deployed the Polestars, where is plethora of advanced or at least parallel technologies you'd expect from these extensive sites?

By no means am I insistent on any theory, for all I know the ravages of time, devolving Talocan, or some other w-space looters may have come along. The hidden technology concept is just one idea that fits what we currently know. But I don't accept the theory that the Talocan felt they were safe when they garrisoned spatial rifts with observation domes, nor that a faction can be defined as pacifists based on the absence of advanced weaponry within gutted vessels and breached structures.

From Aedeal
Subject Ancient Races Update #8
Date 114.01.05 00:22
Content The mere invocation of "they're not there, therefore they did do it" is just as dreadful an answer. To both arguments I suggest:

They haven't been found, in ship, structure, or otherwise. None the less, their posession of fullerite tech suggests a strong possibility that they know of Anoikis and have spent time there. However, without a shred of evidence of them being there at the time of the two races in question, I will continue to discount them as the prime movers and relegate them to the position of just observers or even non-participants.

Now please, can we stop invoking the bogeymen?

From Esna Pitoojee
Subject Ancient Races Update #8
Date 114.01.05 00:35
Content Arek'Jaalan members,

While I understand the intense feelings surrounding this issue, I would politely ask that this discussion be removed to a secondary mailing list, or perhaps a meeting of the AR division, both to ease the speed of the conversation and so as not to logjam the mailing system of other Arek'Jalaan participants with a limited discussion.

Thank you,
Esna Pitoojee

From Myyona
Subject Ancient Races Update #8
Date 114.01.05 19:37
Content I suggest we continue the discussion on the dedicated page for the article here.

Please post below previous additions unless you want to reply to a certain post and then make an indent.

Be sure to tag you posts with a signature and time stamp.

Regards Myyona

From Wyke Mossari
Subject Ancient Races Update #8
Date 114.01.05 22:07
Content I strongly disagree, I applaud the recent vigourous discussion, it is the very point of this organisation.


From Victor Haginen
Subject Ancient Races Update #8
Date 114.01.06 05:38
Content Indeed. If we are not on this list to discuss such things, what ARE we here for?
From Adainy Gwanwyn
Subject Ancient Races Update #8
Date 114.01.06 06:21
Content Perhaps we can reach a compromise. General discussion on the topic can be continued on the designated page, and any major announcements resulting from the discussion can be sent to the A'J mailing list? For all we know, this discussion could simply fizzle into nothing, in which case it would be best not to flood the list. However, continuing the discussion on the page would help keep the conversation contained in an atmosphere where it is still public and free to grow, and any major topic derived out of it can be sent to the whole of us.

Simply a thought. I don't want to take any sides on this matter, so I will let those who concern themselves with the matter do as they wish.

From Siobhan MacLeary
Subject Ancient Races Update #8
Date 114.01.07 10:05
Content I would find that acceptable. I am subscribed to this mailing list mainly to keep an eye on anything the project might come up with, as well as contributing what I might have to contribute. I do like seeing the mailing list active, but seeing my inbox mainly filled with discussion instead of updates on the various projects doesn't seem to fit the purpose of the list very well. Just my .02 ISK.